<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Price Creep Redux: Beer Bars Disrespect Their Customers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/</link>
	<description>Dedicated to the art, complexity, and business of beer...</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 05:23:56 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 03:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-273</guid>
		<description>Welcome back Bob and thanks for your comments.  Measured as per usual...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome back Bob and thanks for your comments.  Measured as per usual&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob Skilnik</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-272</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Skilnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-272</guid>
		<description>Is there a barker outside Bukowskiâ€™s who waves a gun and threatens to shoot passers-by if they don&#039;t go into the bar and spend money?

In Chicago, if we don&#039;t like the price, we go somewhere else, and we leave our pencils, notebooks and calculators at home. They get in the way of reasonably-priced beers as we drink.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there a barker outside Bukowskiâ€™s who waves a gun and threatens to shoot passers-by if they don&#8217;t go into the bar and spend money?</p>
<p>In Chicago, if we don&#8217;t like the price, we go somewhere else, and we leave our pencils, notebooks and calculators at home. They get in the way of reasonably-priced beers as we drink.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-251</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-251</guid>
		<description>The sad part is that, as a resident of NYC, most of those &quot;highway robbery&quot;pint prices just looked normal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sad part is that, as a resident of NYC, most of those &#8220;highway robbery&#8221;pint prices just looked normal.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-248</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-248</guid>
		<description>Nice article and when you look at a standard mark up for Dogfish Head 60 min IPA, you come out with a price, with profit, of $1.65 a pint.  Yup, we are getting bent over the rail on all of these beers.  Yes, they are fine beverages but these price points justify every single homebrew I have ever made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article and when you look at a standard mark up for Dogfish Head 60 min IPA, you come out with a price, with profit, of $1.65 a pint.  Yup, we are getting bent over the rail on all of these beers.  Yes, they are fine beverages but these price points justify every single homebrew I have ever made.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ric Hess</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>Ric Hess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-247</guid>
		<description>I suppose that there&#039;s some service to someone in publishing pricing observations for certain establishments, but frankly I don&#039;t think it&#039;s anyone&#039;s business, outside of the business owners&#039;, how they derive their markup strategy or what they determine to charge.  I do know that, for bars, the typical bottom line, before tax, net is 10% on gross revenue.  And that&#039;s a hard won figure to achieve.  There are so many criteria that go into pricing, and product cost is just one of them.  Others include location, competition, local market, type of establishment, customer base and on and on.  When I go to see the Cubs play at Wrigley I pay $6.25 for a 16 oz Bud and I&#039;m happy to drink bad beer at that price because I&#039;m at Wrigley.  If I have a cocktail on the sky deck at the John Hancock building, I&#039;ll easily pay double what I would down on the ground, and not bat an eye.  Strip clubs charge outrageous prices for notoriously bad product and no one complains.  The point is, it&#039;s up to the establishment what to charge and if they can get away with it, God Bless Them.  It&#039;s hard enough to make money in this business without a socialist observer peering over your shoulder offering critique, especially when they have no money in the game.
I do love the beer advocate, but this article raised my ire.  Open a bar, after all the red tape and expense that requires, run it sucessfully for five years or so and then you can preach all you want about keeping prices reasonable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose that there&#8217;s some service to someone in publishing pricing observations for certain establishments, but frankly I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s anyone&#8217;s business, outside of the business owners&#8217;, how they derive their markup strategy or what they determine to charge.  I do know that, for bars, the typical bottom line, before tax, net is 10% on gross revenue.  And that&#8217;s a hard won figure to achieve.  There are so many criteria that go into pricing, and product cost is just one of them.  Others include location, competition, local market, type of establishment, customer base and on and on.  When I go to see the Cubs play at Wrigley I pay $6.25 for a 16 oz Bud and I&#8217;m happy to drink bad beer at that price because I&#8217;m at Wrigley.  If I have a cocktail on the sky deck at the John Hancock building, I&#8217;ll easily pay double what I would down on the ground, and not bat an eye.  Strip clubs charge outrageous prices for notoriously bad product and no one complains.  The point is, it&#8217;s up to the establishment what to charge and if they can get away with it, God Bless Them.  It&#8217;s hard enough to make money in this business without a socialist observer peering over your shoulder offering critique, especially when they have no money in the game.<br />
I do love the beer advocate, but this article raised my ire.  Open a bar, after all the red tape and expense that requires, run it sucessfully for five years or so and then you can preach all you want about keeping prices reasonable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-242</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your â€œmini-rantâ€? is simply out of touch with realities of running a restaurant and bar.  It is one thing to have an opinion that an establishment is overpriced but quite another to use terms of extortion, robbery and rape.<br />
Using your analytics, I can conclude I am being raped every time I buy a magazine or book based on the cost of the paper and ink.  However, I am not naÃ¯ve to think these are the only costs of publishing.  I do not know typical margins of the publishing business but would conduct some research before declaring rape and robbery.  A 20 percent pour cost (or 500 percent markup which sounds much more sensational) is pretty much the standard for draft beer and liquor.  Hereâ€™s an article from a maker of draft systems:<br />
<a href="http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer-edu/draft-beer-profitability-aid-129.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.micromatic.com/draf.....d-129.html</a></p>
<p>You go to great lengths to demonstrate your knowledge of wholesale keg pricing.  If keg cost was the only cost input in operating a restaurant and bar, your smear might have some creditability.   However consider the following factors:</p>
<p>â€¢	There are other costs associated with serving draft beer properly such as maintaining the glycol system, compressed gas, free samples, customer returns and waste from line cleaning.<br />
â€¢	Most retail rents increase annually and contain percentage of sales clauses which multiply the effect of raising prices to cover costs.  Sales tax has a similar multiplier effect.<br />
â€¢	Retail rent can vary widely based on the local market, property location and condition of the improvements and should be considered when comparing prices.<br />
â€¢	Labor costs continue to climb.  Here in California, the minimum wage increased to $8.00 on Jan 1.  Adding 20 percent for payroll taxes and workers comp, results in a $9.60 cost an hour for the bartender to pour that pint for you.  Assuming a busy bar pouring an average of 20 pints an hour, another 50 cents gets added to the cost of a pint.<br />
â€¢	Food costs have increased significantly over the past six months:</p>
<p>`	<a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120493352022320755.html" rel="nofollow">http://online.wsj.com/article/.....20755.html</a><br />
It can be a competitive advantage to hold food prices and raise beer prices if you compete directly with similar restaurants but have a unique beer list.<br />
.<br />
Of course there are many other costs associated with this type of business (entertainment, insurance, utilities, etc.) which may not have increased dramatically over the past year but must still considered when determining profitability.  </p>
<p>Those in the restaurant and bar business sell more than just food and drink.  Location, ambience and service also have costs.</p>
<p>I am not familiar with the business that is the subject of your rant but I doubt the owner is loading up the Brinks truck at the end of the night.  It seems to me like you are bitter that a bar with prices you deem to high is still operating.  It is fine to have that opinion but at least acknowledge the economic environment that business is operating within.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-239</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-239</guid>
		<description>Hi Andy, Your points are well taken.  But even beyond scarcity and turnover issues, what do you think of the idea that, as a matter of principle, for whatever reason, a publican can mark up a beer that he knows is highly regarded or seriously sought after.  I don&#039;t mean to belabor the point, but even if in theory any bar can order any keg that the distributors carry, some choose to carry things that others don&#039;t.  If a certain place regularly has something on tap that nobody seems to carry, I would gladly pay a premium for that.  For example, I love Czechvar, and for a while Noir in the Charles Hotel in Cambridge had it on tap for 6 bucks a pint.   I was stoked and was willing to pay extra to drink it on tap even though I could get a sixer or a twelver for cheap at the store.  So just to illustrate the principle...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Andy, Your points are well taken.  But even beyond scarcity and turnover issues, what do you think of the idea that, as a matter of principle, for whatever reason, a publican can mark up a beer that he knows is highly regarded or seriously sought after.  I don&#8217;t mean to belabor the point, but even if in theory any bar can order any keg that the distributors carry, some choose to carry things that others don&#8217;t.  If a certain place regularly has something on tap that nobody seems to carry, I would gladly pay a premium for that.  For example, I love Czechvar, and for a while Noir in the Charles Hotel in Cambridge had it on tap for 6 bucks a pint.   I was stoked and was willing to pay extra to drink it on tap even though I could get a sixer or a twelver for cheap at the store.  So just to illustrate the principle&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 02:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-238</guid>
		<description>Hi Seth-

In very rare circumstances, I agree that demand overcomes supply in terms of a very limited release beer.  If we&#039;re talking about 20 sixtels of a particular beer, say Dieu Du Ciel&#039;s Peche Mortel, being spread evenly around the country, with say 2 logs total in the Massachusetts market, you are certainly correct.  This is not the case with any of the beers I&#039;ve mentioned.  Each of these selections is available to any bar that wishes to place an order and so the price ratios should not reflect any measure of scarcity.  In terms of beers that do not move, I would wager that there are very few accounts (the likes of which I am discussing, namely a niche within a niche) that do not move a significant amount of beer in their 12, 16, or 24 taps.  If you are the Sunset, with 100+ taps, it may be a different story.  If you are Redbones with 24 taps, you shouldn&#039;t be putting anything on (or should remove it and return it to the wholesaler) if it can&#039;t move a certain amount in a specified time frame.  My overarching point in this comment I suppose is that, yes, indeed, I believe that publicans should mark up their beers at a specific ratio point absent distinct circumstances to the contrary.  Now, this is just my thought and publicans certainly can and do act to the contrary.  As such, they&#039;re not likely to get my business and I&#039;m going to write about their practices.  They, of course, are more than welcome to add their own justifying comments here.

Cheers and thanks for the thoughts,

Andy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Seth-</p>
<p>In very rare circumstances, I agree that demand overcomes supply in terms of a very limited release beer.  If we&#8217;re talking about 20 sixtels of a particular beer, say Dieu Du Ciel&#8217;s Peche Mortel, being spread evenly around the country, with say 2 logs total in the Massachusetts market, you are certainly correct.  This is not the case with any of the beers I&#8217;ve mentioned.  Each of these selections is available to any bar that wishes to place an order and so the price ratios should not reflect any measure of scarcity.  In terms of beers that do not move, I would wager that there are very few accounts (the likes of which I am discussing, namely a niche within a niche) that do not move a significant amount of beer in their 12, 16, or 24 taps.  If you are the Sunset, with 100+ taps, it may be a different story.  If you are Redbones with 24 taps, you shouldn&#8217;t be putting anything on (or should remove it and return it to the wholesaler) if it can&#8217;t move a certain amount in a specified time frame.  My overarching point in this comment I suppose is that, yes, indeed, I believe that publicans should mark up their beers at a specific ratio point absent distinct circumstances to the contrary.  Now, this is just my thought and publicans certainly can and do act to the contrary.  As such, they&#8217;re not likely to get my business and I&#8217;m going to write about their practices.  They, of course, are more than welcome to add their own justifying comments here.</p>
<p>Cheers and thanks for the thoughts,</p>
<p>Andy</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 02:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-237</guid>
		<description>Not to throw water on your beautiful rant here (I am just as dismayed by the high prices as everyone else), but I have to say that this entire discussion, as well as the discussions on the BA boards, focus entirely on wholesale vs. retail costs.  This essentially treats all beers the same and assumes that bars on average should mark up each beer equally based on margins above cost.  Unfortunately, this is not really the way that the marketplace works.  You have to take into account forces of supply and demand.  Certain beers that are more expensive than other beers at wholesale might actually retail for less because they move more volume and there is more turnover of that tap line.  So brands with more turnover might sell for more at retail even though they wholesale for less.  Bars are free to markup brands that are more popular, more trendy, have more &quot;buzz&quot; in the beer community, etc.  This is a business decision that is normal for any other business operation.  Granted, this should all be within reason, and when we feel that we are not getting value, we should take our business elsewhere.  Eventually if enough do so, the owners will get the message and change their practices accordingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to throw water on your beautiful rant here (I am just as dismayed by the high prices as everyone else), but I have to say that this entire discussion, as well as the discussions on the BA boards, focus entirely on wholesale vs. retail costs.  This essentially treats all beers the same and assumes that bars on average should mark up each beer equally based on margins above cost.  Unfortunately, this is not really the way that the marketplace works.  You have to take into account forces of supply and demand.  Certain beers that are more expensive than other beers at wholesale might actually retail for less because they move more volume and there is more turnover of that tap line.  So brands with more turnover might sell for more at retail even though they wholesale for less.  Bars are free to markup brands that are more popular, more trendy, have more &#8220;buzz&#8221; in the beer community, etc.  This is a business decision that is normal for any other business operation.  Granted, this should all be within reason, and when we feel that we are not getting value, we should take our business elsewhere.  Eventually if enough do so, the owners will get the message and change their practices accordingly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-235</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beerscribe.com/2008/03/07/price-creep-redux-beer-bars-disrespect-their-customers/#comment-235</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;Um, if wholesale keg prices go up 10%, why wouldnâ€™t you expect pint prices to go up 10%, i.e. 40 or 50 cents?

Simple math?

Let&#039;s take Stone&#039;s IPA jump of 20 bucks.  It&#039;s still the same 124 16 oz. pints.  The only thing that increases is the cost to the bar owner.  There is no extra labor - the only increasing cost that must be covered by the pint sale is that of the price raise of the brewer.  Works out to roughly 17 cents a pint.  So where is the other 33 cents going on your 10% raise of 50 cents a pint?

It&#039;s not an issue of price increase, it&#039;s an issue of price increase under false pretense.  You expect price markups of 300-400% - bars have to pay for everything from staff to rent to upkeep and much more.  You expect price increases - beer prices go up, we know that.  However, inflating the markup and assigning the reason as price creep when in fact that is such a small factor?  Straight up dishonesty.

&gt;&gt;As for Bukoswkiâ€™s being expensiveâ€¦ itâ€™s called free market capitalism.

&quot;In a free market environment buyers and sellers do not coerce or mislead each other nor are they coerced by a third party.&quot;

You did notice the &quot;mislead&quot; part, right?  Claiming a 50 cent increase in price due to a 17 cent increase in cost certainly falls under misleading.

This is disrespect - so do what any self-respecting person would do, buy it by the case and have friends over.

P.S. - 3 bucks for a PBR pint?  Man, I can grab a 64 oz. pitcher for $1 more.  If that isn&#039;t gouging, I&#039;m not sure what is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;Um, if wholesale keg prices go up 10%, why wouldnâ€™t you expect pint prices to go up 10%, i.e. 40 or 50 cents?</p>
<p>Simple math?</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take Stone&#8217;s IPA jump of 20 bucks.  It&#8217;s still the same 124 16 oz. pints.  The only thing that increases is the cost to the bar owner.  There is no extra labor &#8211; the only increasing cost that must be covered by the pint sale is that of the price raise of the brewer.  Works out to roughly 17 cents a pint.  So where is the other 33 cents going on your 10% raise of 50 cents a pint?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not an issue of price increase, it&#8217;s an issue of price increase under false pretense.  You expect price markups of 300-400% &#8211; bars have to pay for everything from staff to rent to upkeep and much more.  You expect price increases &#8211; beer prices go up, we know that.  However, inflating the markup and assigning the reason as price creep when in fact that is such a small factor?  Straight up dishonesty.</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;As for Bukoswkiâ€™s being expensiveâ€¦ itâ€™s called free market capitalism.</p>
<p>&#8220;In a free market environment buyers and sellers do not coerce or mislead each other nor are they coerced by a third party.&#8221;</p>
<p>You did notice the &#8220;mislead&#8221; part, right?  Claiming a 50 cent increase in price due to a 17 cent increase in cost certainly falls under misleading.</p>
<p>This is disrespect &#8211; so do what any self-respecting person would do, buy it by the case and have friends over.</p>
<p>P.S. &#8211; 3 bucks for a PBR pint?  Man, I can grab a 64 oz. pitcher for $1 more.  If that isn&#8217;t gouging, I&#8217;m not sure what is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

